AFL reserves teams proposal.

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Re: AFL reserves teams proposal.

Post by darley16 on Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:54 am

If the "care" factor was reflected in last night's attendance of mainly elderly folk (including myself) then i say let's have the AFL ressies in our comp, which is totally against what i wanted when i turned up last night. However given such a poor response from our members and given the the club really wanted feedback from it's members on this important issue and only a handful fronted i saw our future right there and then and it is not good!

Logically it makes no sense to have reserves teams in our comp but with the possibilities of maybe more interest particularly from the young and potentially greater exposure then there's little to lose because as reflected last night not that many care. Lets face it it's the same old posters on here and on facebook and on safooty.net who make posts and comments. The majority are silent, our crowds are down our debt is high football ain't what is was and will never be again.

I was impressed with the thoughtfulness and depth of all the questions which reflected real passion for both the SANFL and our club and in the presence of all board members who listened with intent to our thoughts.

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Re: AFL reserves teams proposal.

Post by Panther Pack on Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:15 am

Hang in there Darley16 people do care but as we all know the clubs serious lack of success had certainly made the supporters gunshy. I like a few others could not make it due to work commitments but I have already made my thoughts known to the club by emailing Evan Arnold.
I'm 30 years old and with my brothers in law who are also 30 or younger we love the fact that the SANFL is a point of difference to the AFL. If south can get more locals playing for them and win more often the crowds will increase and people will bring there children along as my brother in law will do once gist kids grow up. However if Crows and Power are in the league kids would more than likely follow the AFL teams and make it hard for the SANFL clubs to get new supporters. Anyway we will wait and see what happens.
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Re: AFL reserves teams proposal.

Post by Panther Pack on Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:07 am

A few more thoughts on this topic:

With the AFL becoming more and more professional and the gap between the AFL & SANFL widening each season I am concerned the AFL reserves teams will dominate the SANFL league.

A few points on this:
1. AFL teams have a salary cap of around 10 million - SANFL clubs salary cap is below half a million.
2. AFL listed players train full time while SANFL listed players train less than 10 hours per week.
3. AFL players have access to full time physio's and support staff meaning they can recover from injuries much quicker.

Had a look at the other State Leagues and it is not good for non AFL reserves clubs.
Geelong Reserves are leading the VFL (Won it last year), Brisbane Reserves are leading the Northern NEAFL comp (won NEAFL last year) and Sydney Swans are 2nd in the NEAFL Eastern comp.

Based on all this how is South Adelaide or any SANFL club which are community clubs meant to compete with AFL clubs?
How is losing to AFL teams good for South Adelaide?
If the SANFL clubs vote yes and the AFL reserves dominate the competiton like other state leagues how can SANFL clubs ask people to put their hard earned money into buying memberships ect when the SANFL clubs will never be on the same playing field as the AFL clubs?

So far in this whole debate I keep hearing why it is good for both the Crows and Power but I am yet to hear how it is good for the SANFL clubs especially if the AFL clubs dominate.

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Re: AFL reserves teams proposal.

Post by saintal on Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:48 am

Personally I’m not overly concerned with the Crows being too good for the rest. Their team last weekend would have looked like this:

Martin
Jaensch
Tambling
McIntrye
Graham
Porplyzia
Callinan
Dowdell
Hartigan
Ellis-Yolmen
Shaw
Johncock (12 who played SANFL league)
Atkins
Siggins
Osborn (3 who played SANFL reserves)
28 year old leader
5 Top Ups from god knows where.

I know the team will vary week to week but I just used last weekend for simplicity. Whilst their top 7 or 8 players will be very good by SANFL league standards, a lack of depth will curtail any chance of them being a genuine contender IMO. But who knows..

Port on the other hand, if they handled the situation well, could be very strong. Take their AFL players and add the likes of Grey, Rose, Kirkwood, Thurgood, Kuilikowski etc and you have the nucleus of a decent team. That’s assuming those Magpie players hang around which would be highly debatable.

Looking at that cobbled together team, which has 12 players who are up to SANFL league standard puts a huge amount of doubt in my mind as to how many AFC supporters will turn up to Noarlunga to watch that side. Especially on a weekend when their AFL team is playing at home. The only time I see the “Ravens” pulling a semi respectable crowd is when a marquee player is making a comeback (i.e. Taylor Walker), or perhaps on a Friday night at the Parade against Norwood. They sure as hell won’t be travelling to Noarlunga to watch that team listed above, especially after the April/May novelty wears off.  

So for two of our ten home games there will be minimal visitor supporters, which wont do the club’s coffers any good. Not to mention the South supporters who won’t be turning up out of principle (i.e. me), or those that have given away the league/club completely due to this mess.

But really crowds etc aren’t the most important aspect of this debate. It’s the fact that a team of full time, professional footballers will be playing in a semi-pro/amateur league where winning the premiership isn’t their priority. Will the league remain relevant in the eyes of the supporters who follow their club on a weekly basis?

The majority of the potential benefits suggested by Trigg and co. are very questionable and don’t appear to be supported by research/substance (in fairness in some cases they can’t be). Ultimately $$ is the only tangible benefit. Money talks unfortunately, we all know that.

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Re: AFL reserves teams proposal.

Post by blueandwhite on Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:36 pm

Some interesting points...

I still have some more concerns about this proposal though..

Why would the AFC , if it cant get the deal done with the SANFL, go and play in the amateur league? Its ridiculous to even suggest that the amateurs would be better competition than even the SANFL reserves (which has been suggested as a feasible alternative).
The AFC is willing to fork out 40k to each SANFL club as a sweetener..;if my maths is correct that is a total of $320k. Pardon me but I would think that 320k would go a long way towards flying a side to Melbourne every week to play in the already tainted and compromised VFL. If Mr Trigg wants his young tyros playing out at Salisbury North with no security with 20-30 bikies hanging about the clubrooms --go for it  I say!

The issue of "top-up" players is an interesting one. We have heard from the AFC that they would like the SANFL clubs to provide top -up players in the 18-22 year old category to fill their side if they are short on numbers.....really..  The West Coast Eagles reserves side in the WAFL could only manage to field 3-4 AFL listed players last weekend because of a spate of injuries.So put that into the proposed SANFL model it would mean that the 8 sanfl clubs would be required to find 17-18 players for a side it would be competing against....go figure..

Any assertion by the AFC that their presence in the SANFL would boost crowd numbers , to me is just fluff. Two VFL sides, Box Hill and Bendigo- who are in essence AFL reserves sides in disguise played in front of a massive crowd of 150 at the weekend. As mentioned previously the only time a crows supporter would venture down to Noarlunga, would be to watch a Tex Walker on his way back from injury, or on his way to McLaren Vale to sip a chardonnay.


I think I would be correct in saying that 15 Crows players, given that some are rookies would command an average salary of close to $1.5mill. The AFC proposes that the SANFL salary cap be reduced by 20k....by my reckoning that would make the SANFL cap around 320k......
$1.5mill versus $320k... not a level playing field and not a compromised competition....?? All the crows players are full time professionals with full time support staff and state of the art rehab facilities and sport science professionals.
Also we will have to go and find replacements in the marketplace for our AFC players with 20k less in our pockets.........

In my opinion this proposal if it is passed it will sound the death knell for the 137 year old SANFL.Evil or Very Mad
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Re: AFL reserves teams proposal.

Post by Panther Pack on Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:06 pm

Blue and White Bendigo are actually 1 of 3 teams in the VFL who are not alligned to an AFL club. There agreement with Essendon ended at the end of last season. They are currently bottom of the VFL without a win 0 from 15 games and are strongly considering leaving the comp. Guaranteed the AFL clubs don't give a rats if Bendigo leave and just shows how the non AFL clubs are treated.

Come on South VOTE NO!!!!! Stay strong!!!!!!
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Re: AFL reserves teams proposal.

Post by saintal on Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:10 pm

With the WCE example, even if their top ups came from outside of the SANFL system, what does this situation do for the competition? Imagine North or Norwood playing host to a Ravens team that has 4-6 AFL listed players, and 15-17 blow ins. What good will this do the league? Extreme example I know, but it's just another risk this proposal creates.

The figure to play in the VFL was around $600K.

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Re: AFL reserves teams proposal.

Post by Ben W on Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:34 pm

I have rung and let the club know that I will not renew our memberships, nor attend another match if their vote is Yes, will be interesting to see what happens!
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Re: AFL reserves teams proposal.

Post by Panther Pack on Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:54 pm

Ben I don't know you but I have so much respect for you right now!!!!!!

VOTE NO SOUTH!!!!!
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Re: AFL reserves teams proposal.

Post by B&W63 on Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:55 pm

Even though it was made clear that the club's views would not be advised to its members until after they have voted I am very certain that they will vote NO.
Our views were very clear at that meeting and I got a very strong impression that Evan Peter and Andrew felt that the Crows proposal was flawed.
The SANFL competition's integrity will be reduced if it goes ahead as proposed and the question of top up players is a huge concern for a club in our position.

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Re: AFL reserves teams proposal.

Post by Spiritof64 on Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:49 pm

Have to wonder if we are making a bad blue. With the SANFL giving up it's home at AAMI, the federal govt giving the amateur league 6mil to redevelop Thebarton oval and the possibility of Crows and Port transferring their allegiance to the SAAFL, and the declining relevance of the SANFL.

Are we cutting off our nose to spite our face?
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Re: AFL reserves teams proposal.

Post by paul on Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:17 pm

To spirit of 64 I think the same if the sanfl stays the same, we could be in a finacial disaster in 3 years time all these people want our club to vote no I hope they have deep pockets to pay our debt our crowds are getting smaller we have just over 500 members and declining every year surely we would want to get more interest in the sanfl fifty thousand buys a lot of memberships
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Re: AFL reserves teams proposal.

Post by the prowler on Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:33 pm

From what I heard on the radio this morning [If I heard right] South are the only Club still saying NO
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Re: AFL reserves teams proposal.

Post by Spiritof64 on Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:35 pm

I'm just not convinced voting for a continuation of the last 50 years is all that smart.
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Re: AFL reserves teams proposal.

Post by Panther Pack on Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:51 pm

I complety understand why both the Crows and Power want reserves teams however how will the South Adelaide Football Club be any better of with both of them coming into the league?
Best case senerio we get 50 grand and maybe a token win against teams who can always turn around after a loss and say the SANFL premiership is not there focus.
Worst case we lose to them and people who may have followed South will start supporting Crows or Power in SANFL. Either way I see no way South Adelaide will increase our supporter base if we have to compete with Juggernauts like the Crows or Power. Plus the supporters the club will lose if the club votes yes!!!!!
Has anyone considered South v Crows round 3 next year South lose what could the club possible say to its members. Sorry we lost to a professional club who has 20 times bigger salary cap and full time players please continue to pay up for memberships even though the playing field is so unfair its a joke.
Don't fool yourself into thinking South won't lose to Crows Reserves Hartigan has been our best player this year and he is a reserves player!!!!!!
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Re: AFL reserves teams proposal.

Post by Spiritof64 on Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:17 pm

It's a glass half empty question. How bad will things get if next year the VFL plays the SAAFL, and players looking for a pathway to the AFL have to have played a senior game with Pooraka, or Kilburn or Goody Saints etc.

The Status Quo won't cut it.

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Re: AFL reserves teams proposal.

Post by paul on Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:44 pm

My family of four and all of my inlaws family all follow South and the CROWS it that a crime cant you follow both and im sure there are heaps more out there to, people say we might loose supportors they must be going to a different matchs than me this year because our supporter base is getting very sad when you get just over 1200 people to our greatest rival in Glenelg at our home match Has anyone thought this might happen in the future we play the crows reserves twice at our home ground all the people that live down south that follow the crows might come to have alook might just jump on south as well when we play other teams only a thought
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Re: AFL reserves teams proposal.

Post by saintal on Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:33 pm

Eagles and Bays have both officially declared they will be voting Yes. North expected to do the same tonight at their member’s meeting, while Westies and Sturt have been tight lipped but are presumably voting yes based on their financial situation and their lack of interaction with members. Why our clubs haven’t had the same fortitude as the majority of the WAFL clubs had last year I’ll never know.

Seems as though the fear of the Crows playing in the SAAFL (absolute bluff by Trigg..which has worked unfortunately) or elsewhere has been a big factor in the decision making. Loss of profile/media coverage/sponsors/supporters. Or so the clubs fear. These factors have been deemed more important than an uncompromised and pure competition. The SANFL reserves option deserved greater attention, but the petulant Crows didn’t want anything to do with it.

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Re: AFL reserves teams proposal.

Post by Panther Pack on Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:53 pm

Really hope South vote No. Even if didn't stop the Crows entering the League I would recommit to the club as at least they would have shown the South Adelaide Members and supporters and all the other SANFL supporters that we could not be bought and would not bend on integrity!!!!!!
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Re: AFL reserves teams proposal.

Post by B&W63 on Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:27 pm

1. In the last 20+ years I believe there have been 10 AFL premierships won by clubs without a reserves side. Correct me if I am wrong, West Coast 2 Adelaide 2 Port P 1 Brisbane 3 & Sydney 2. I cannot see why there is such a strong push to change.
2. I also cannot see the benefit to South when we struggle to field a strong team, struggle to achieve strong junior participation, and struggle to increase our supporter numbers at the moment. This proposal has rubbery figures which appear not to have been researched.
3. Our club will be hard hit I believe when they look for the top up players.
4. I also follow the Crows but I will not go to see South v Crows reserves, I will watch Reynella instead.

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Re: AFL reserves teams proposal.

Post by Panther Pack on Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:49 am

Rucci is reporting South r still not a yes hope this is true. If the Crows come into the League I believe the weak clubs like South will only be weakened more. VFL is a classic example.
Given at the moment there is No Guarantee we won't lose Players to the Crows.
No Guarantee we will get any coverage from new media deal.
No Guarantee our crowd figurs or supporter base will grow. Wouldn't adding extra teams just dilute the supporters over more clubs and if the Crows are up and about winning and with far greater media coverage what youngster is automatically going to pick South to follow????
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Re: AFL reserves teams proposal.

Post by B&W63 on Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:38 am

This is a hard issue to deal with at difficult time for Panther supporters. Spirit of 64 may be right but what gets my back up is the heavy handed Crows approach ( and I don't have any respect for Trigg) with no substantiated figures being rushed through, and the threat of going to the amateurs if SANFL says no.
As PP says will youngsters follow our club if crows reserves are there to watch?

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Re: AFL reserves teams proposal.

Post by saintal on Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:33 pm

So it appears as though tonight could be the night the vote is cast. The AFC listed some benefits for the SANFL clubs a while back, most of which can be easily picked to peices. I’m still struggling to find tangible benefits for the league/clubs and the comprimising of the competition is the killer blow in all this.

Unfortunately Trigg has done a great job of bluffing his way through, and the scare tactics (loss of relevance/media/sponsors/players) have worked a treat. A trial period in the SANFL reserves in my opinion was the best way to go. A compromise by all parties. What’s best for SA footy. But nope, AFC would not even consider it. Why? “Because we don’t want to”- The words of their commuication manager David Burtenshaw.

Anyway, I’ll try to make this my last post on this topic for a while, have been rambling on too much Very Happy

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Re: AFL reserves teams proposal.

Post by blueandwhite on Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:44 pm

Dark days...Dark days...Mad Evil or Very Mad Crying or Very sad 
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Re: AFL reserves teams proposal.

Post by darley16 on Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:01 pm

After much hand wringing and concern that the comp will die off with AFL ressies i have had a re-think and concluded that there may be an upside to this. More $$, more and hopefully better media exposure (Channel 7), maybe more youth wanting to go to SANFL footy. I know these are all maybe's (except for the money) but we need to keep our power dry and see what this looks like at the end of next season, there is a chance this may not be the destroyer we think it is. I for one am prepared to give it a go, i understand it will be subject to annual reviews so if it turns out a failure things can be changed.

Only time will tell us if this move is for the better or worse and i think our historic club and our comp deserves at least a chance to judge its worth.

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